1 00:00:14,730 --> 00:00:11,790 on this episode of skeptic Oh guest host 2 00:00:18,150 --> 00:00:14,740 dr. rich Griego brings us interviews 3 00:00:18,929 --> 00:00:18,160 from the 2012 parapsychology Association 4 00:00:21,179 --> 00:00:18,939 conference 5 00:00:22,980 --> 00:00:21,189 well then let's jump right into the 6 00:00:25,710 --> 00:00:22,990 first interview and that's of course 7 00:00:28,290 --> 00:00:25,720 Daryl BEM quantum theory in quantum 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:28,300 mechanics has never had an empirical 9 00:00:32,009 --> 00:00:30,730 failure that is to the degree you can 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:32,019 measure within the error of measurement 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:34,330 every prediction made by quantum 12 00:00:38,810 --> 00:00:36,730 mechanics has come true the thing that 13 00:00:41,459 --> 00:00:38,820 so boggles the mind of cycle of 14 00:00:43,740 --> 00:00:41,469 physicists in the 20th century was no 15 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:43,750 one knows how it works yeah so even 16 00:00:48,810 --> 00:00:46,210 Fineman who won a nobel prize for all of 17 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:48,820 this said stop beating yourself up by 18 00:00:54,779 --> 00:00:51,250 asking but how can this be nobody knows 19 00:00:58,799 --> 00:00:54,789 how this can be and psychologists and 20 00:01:01,200 --> 00:00:58,809 non physicists generally don't know that 21 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:01,210 that conundrum exists in some in physics 22 00:01:05,219 --> 00:01:02,770 they say well I don't have the 23 00:01:07,469 --> 00:01:05,229 mathematical knowledge to know what 24 00:01:10,740 --> 00:01:07,479 quantum mechanics is they should give 25 00:01:23,669 --> 00:01:10,750 themselves more credit no one knows 26 00:01:27,669 --> 00:01:26,020 welcome to skeptic oh where we explore 27 00:01:29,980 --> 00:01:27,679 controversial science with leading 28 00:01:32,380 --> 00:01:29,990 researchers thinkers and their critics 29 00:01:34,719 --> 00:01:32,390 I'm your host Alex Karras and on this 30 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:34,729 episode as you just heard we have some 31 00:01:39,669 --> 00:01:37,090 very interesting interviews from the 32 00:01:41,380 --> 00:01:39,679 parapsychology Association conference I 33 00:01:44,770 --> 00:01:41,390 think you're gonna enjoy all of them 34 00:01:47,139 --> 00:01:44,780 let's get right to the interviews today 35 00:01:49,809 --> 00:01:47,149 we welcome back dr. Richard Gregg Oh - 36 00:01:51,669 --> 00:01:49,819 skeptic oh rich as you may remember has 37 00:01:54,460 --> 00:01:51,679 brought us some kind of feet on the 38 00:01:56,050 --> 00:01:54,470 street interviews most recently a few 39 00:01:58,179 --> 00:01:56,060 episodes back from the American 40 00:02:00,880 --> 00:01:58,189 psychology Association conference and 41 00:02:03,419 --> 00:02:00,890 this time he has a series of interviews 42 00:02:05,889 --> 00:02:03,429 that he recently conducted at the 43 00:02:08,319 --> 00:02:05,899 parapsychology Association meeting for 44 00:02:11,289 --> 00:02:08,329 2012 and I believe that was in Durham 45 00:02:13,869 --> 00:02:11,299 North Carolina is that right rich yes so 46 00:02:15,970 --> 00:02:13,879 rich is also as you remember a 47 00:02:19,030 --> 00:02:15,980 philosophy professor at Florida State 48 00:02:20,740 --> 00:02:19,040 College he's an old hand by now on 49 00:02:21,940 --> 00:02:20,750 skeptic Coast you don't need to 50 00:02:25,390 --> 00:02:21,950 introduce him very much 51 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:25,400 we're gonna jump right into these very 52 00:02:28,660 --> 00:02:27,230 very interesting interviews that he's 53 00:02:30,370 --> 00:02:28,670 brought us from the parapsychology 54 00:02:32,319 --> 00:02:30,380 Association conference so where I 55 00:02:34,479 --> 00:02:32,329 thought we'd start rich why don't you 56 00:02:36,940 --> 00:02:34,489 give us a little bit of a feel for the 57 00:02:38,949 --> 00:02:36,950 conference in general you know number of 58 00:02:40,979 --> 00:02:38,959 attendees kind of who were the people 59 00:02:43,150 --> 00:02:40,989 that were there what it was all about 60 00:02:45,699 --> 00:02:43,160 okay yeah the parapsychological 61 00:02:47,650 --> 00:02:45,709 Association of course is the primary or 62 00:02:49,660 --> 00:02:47,660 one of the primary professional 63 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:49,670 associations for scholars in the field 64 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:51,530 of parapsychology and the 65 00:02:56,500 --> 00:02:53,810 parapsychological Association conference 66 00:02:58,059 --> 00:02:56,510 is the annual I get convocation at which 67 00:03:01,390 --> 00:02:58,069 these scholars share their latest 68 00:03:05,580 --> 00:03:01,400 research and this year it was and held 69 00:03:08,650 --> 00:03:05,590 August 2012 was in Raleigh Durham on 70 00:03:10,210 --> 00:03:08,660 North Carolina or right adjacent as a 71 00:03:12,849 --> 00:03:10,220 matter of fact and it was no coincidence 72 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:12,859 - the famous Ryan Research Center that 73 00:03:17,589 --> 00:03:14,930 was formerly connected with Duke 74 00:03:19,599 --> 00:03:17,599 University and you know since power 75 00:03:22,110 --> 00:03:19,609 psychological research obviously 76 00:03:24,129 --> 00:03:22,120 concerns cutting edge controversial 77 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:24,139 explorations and stuff regarding the 78 00:03:31,030 --> 00:03:25,730 nature and the substance of 79 00:03:32,949 --> 00:03:31,040 consciousness and cosmos I wanted to see 80 00:03:34,740 --> 00:03:32,959 because get a chance perhaps to talk 81 00:03:36,270 --> 00:03:34,750 with the scholars there and obtain as 82 00:03:39,540 --> 00:03:36,280 abstracts and summaries of the 83 00:03:43,590 --> 00:03:39,550 presentations and so forth for skeptic 84 00:03:46,740 --> 00:03:43,600 oh and they were about I would say a 85 00:03:49,710 --> 00:03:46,750 couple of hundred scholars they're 86 00:03:52,230 --> 00:03:49,720 researchers from various fields like you 87 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:52,240 know everything from neuroscience to 88 00:04:02,460 --> 00:03:56,730 physics to philosophy and I wanted to my 89 00:04:05,930 --> 00:04:02,470 project sort of was to gather abstracts 90 00:04:09,390 --> 00:04:05,940 and summaries of these presentations as 91 00:04:12,380 --> 00:04:09,400 well as follow-up questions regarding 92 00:04:16,159 --> 00:04:12,390 how they felt these their findings 93 00:04:18,210 --> 00:04:16,169 impacted evidence for a non material 94 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:18,220 consciousness or dimension of 95 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:19,690 consciousness so that's that's 96 00:04:23,340 --> 00:04:21,130 essentially was the nature of the the 97 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:23,350 conference and what I was attempting to 98 00:04:28,470 --> 00:04:26,530 to do there okay well then let's jump 99 00:04:30,690 --> 00:04:28,480 right into the first interview that 100 00:04:32,820 --> 00:04:30,700 we're gonna bring to folks and then talk 101 00:04:35,580 --> 00:04:32,830 a little bit about and that's of course 102 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:35,590 Daryl BEM won't you set this up for us 103 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:37,690 briefly with what his presentation was 104 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:40,210 about okay yeah sure all Daryl BEM of 105 00:04:44,159 --> 00:04:42,370 course as most people know is this is a 106 00:04:45,540 --> 00:04:44,169 preeminent scholar in the field of 107 00:04:48,659 --> 00:04:45,550 social psychology 108 00:04:50,310 --> 00:04:48,669 I guess formerly at Cornell and you know 109 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:50,320 his groundbreaking work in the Paris 110 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:52,570 psychological field was in the area of 111 00:04:57,450 --> 00:04:55,570 precognition and his this really famous 112 00:05:00,330 --> 00:04:57,460 paper in the journal I think of 113 00:05:02,670 --> 00:05:00,340 Personality and Social Psychology caused 114 00:05:06,750 --> 00:05:02,680 a huge stir on because of its it's 115 00:05:09,659 --> 00:05:06,760 really you know fantastic results and 116 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:09,669 his his paper at the conference was 117 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:11,410 entitled what I've learned during my 15 118 00:05:15,450 --> 00:05:13,450 minutes of fame and it was sort of this 119 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:15,460 informal but very interesting and 120 00:05:20,670 --> 00:05:18,130 insightful and entertaining really 121 00:05:22,860 --> 00:05:20,680 overview of the scientific community's 122 00:05:24,750 --> 00:05:22,870 reception of his work and sort of the 123 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:24,760 culture of the scientific community now 124 00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:27,250 and current theories of physics and 125 00:05:30,390 --> 00:05:29,110 consciousness that relate to size 126 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:30,400 phenomena it was really a very 127 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:33,010 interesting presentation and our 128 00:05:38,969 --> 00:05:35,410 interview in its entirety covered that 129 00:05:41,850 --> 00:05:38,979 stuff and and this excerpt is sort of in 130 00:05:44,909 --> 00:05:41,860 keeping with my main focus regards his 131 00:05:47,100 --> 00:05:44,919 reflections on how popular fashionable 132 00:05:48,540 --> 00:05:47,110 metaphors and analogies really have 133 00:05:50,340 --> 00:05:48,550 influenced scientific 134 00:05:54,300 --> 00:05:50,350 Church on consciousness as well as 135 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:54,310 implications of that for for physics and 136 00:06:00,510 --> 00:05:57,250 and research and insight great let's 137 00:06:03,030 --> 00:06:00,520 play that clip one of the fascinating 138 00:06:06,060 --> 00:06:03,040 things I thought you said being a 139 00:06:07,860 --> 00:06:06,070 philosopher a profession I thought was 140 00:06:10,770 --> 00:06:07,870 that was really really particularly 141 00:06:12,840 --> 00:06:10,780 profound and insightful was you 142 00:06:14,630 --> 00:06:12,850 mentioned that this is switching gears a 143 00:06:18,750 --> 00:06:14,640 little bit from sort of methodology 144 00:06:20,610 --> 00:06:18,760 related the extent to which and correct 145 00:06:22,950 --> 00:06:20,620 me if I'm if I'm paraphrasing you wrong 146 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:22,960 the extent to which our metaphors for 147 00:06:26,250 --> 00:06:23,890 mine Oh 148 00:06:28,980 --> 00:06:26,260 can't figure that you can figure what 149 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:28,990 questions were permitted to explore with 150 00:06:34,470 --> 00:06:32,370 respect to consciousness is really 151 00:06:36,780 --> 00:06:34,480 interesting and so I was wondering 152 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:36,790 what's the current metaphor do you think 153 00:06:41,370 --> 00:06:39,370 oh how is it shaping okay what questions 154 00:06:44,220 --> 00:06:41,380 were permitted as well method although 155 00:06:45,930 --> 00:06:44,230 what I was what led me to comment on 156 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:45,940 this was back in the 50s when fans 157 00:06:50,580 --> 00:06:48,310 Packard wrote the book the hidden 158 00:06:53,010 --> 00:06:50,590 persuaders yeah was all about subliminal 159 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:53,020 stimulation a stimuli that are flashed 160 00:06:56,940 --> 00:06:54,850 so quickly that your conscious mind is 161 00:06:58,740 --> 00:06:56,950 not aware that they're there and there 162 00:07:00,540 --> 00:06:58,750 are a whole set of experiments done at 163 00:07:02,490 --> 00:07:00,550 that time that showed that people had 164 00:07:04,860 --> 00:07:02,500 different personalities reacted to 165 00:07:07,230 --> 00:07:04,870 threatening stimuli differently and what 166 00:07:09,630 --> 00:07:07,240 you would do is flash a horrible picture 167 00:07:11,730 --> 00:07:09,640 or a sexual picture or something so fast 168 00:07:13,620 --> 00:07:11,740 the conscious mind couldn't do it and 169 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:13,630 there were claims being made then about 170 00:07:17,370 --> 00:07:15,370 how people react to this kind of threat 171 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:17,380 and they see them faster or slower than 172 00:07:21,890 --> 00:07:18,810 other people for example 173 00:07:23,270 --> 00:07:21,900 and all of that sort of fell apart that 174 00:07:24,950 --> 00:07:23,280 people said that we don't believe 175 00:07:26,510 --> 00:07:24,960 there's subliminal stimulation we don't 176 00:07:28,310 --> 00:07:26,520 can't believe these experiments and all 177 00:07:30,470 --> 00:07:28,320 that and so it just laid fallow for a 178 00:07:32,300 --> 00:07:30,480 long time now a social psychologists use 179 00:07:34,250 --> 00:07:32,310 subliminal stimulation as part of their 180 00:07:36,380 --> 00:07:34,260 methodology and the question is what 181 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:36,390 changed right yeah well first of all 182 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:38,690 people did get more methodologically 183 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:40,410 sophisticated on how to run these 184 00:07:45,470 --> 00:07:43,530 experiments but I think from the 185 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:45,480 language used you can tell the people's 186 00:07:49,850 --> 00:07:47,010 metaphors of what the mind is like 187 00:07:51,980 --> 00:07:49,860 changed and that changed Dan it was more 188 00:07:55,790 --> 00:07:51,990 like a switchboard the mind has you know 189 00:07:57,860 --> 00:07:55,800 stimuli in responses a yeah yeah and if 190 00:08:01,850 --> 00:07:57,870 that's the view you have then to be told 191 00:08:04,220 --> 00:08:01,860 that somehow you you react to threat 192 00:08:05,510 --> 00:08:04,230 that you haven't seen and so the people 193 00:08:07,370 --> 00:08:05,520 were saying well so who is this little 194 00:08:09,380 --> 00:08:07,380 homunculus in your mind that looks out 195 00:08:11,570 --> 00:08:09,390 at the world and says no don't see that 196 00:08:13,909 --> 00:08:11,580 right well that sounds absurd I mean 197 00:08:16,850 --> 00:08:13,919 it's almost ridicule absolutely to say 198 00:08:18,530 --> 00:08:16,860 that now our metaphor has changed from a 199 00:08:21,260 --> 00:08:18,540 switchboard and and it's sort of 200 00:08:24,890 --> 00:08:21,270 implicit to a computer yeah yeah and is 201 00:08:26,300 --> 00:08:24,900 that the popular serve everybody uses of 202 00:08:28,430 --> 00:08:26,310 whether they realize it or not because 203 00:08:31,310 --> 00:08:28,440 you talk to your computer 204 00:08:34,459 --> 00:08:31,320 yeah if you say dummy the informations 205 00:08:37,430 --> 00:08:34,469 not on a hard disk go over look at it 206 00:08:39,469 --> 00:08:37,440 here and exactly parlance between PBS 207 00:08:42,290 --> 00:08:39,479 and you certainly know that what you see 208 00:08:44,180 --> 00:08:42,300 on the screen is only a tiny fraction of 209 00:08:46,430 --> 00:08:44,190 all the processing that's going on in 210 00:08:48,530 --> 00:08:46,440 the computer so the notion of the human 211 00:08:50,510 --> 00:08:48,540 mind is that least as good as the 212 00:08:53,150 --> 00:08:50,520 computer that things are going on 213 00:08:55,370 --> 00:08:53,160 underneath so when when you're working 214 00:08:57,590 --> 00:08:55,380 on a computer it's making decisions 215 00:08:59,570 --> 00:08:57,600 about you know you misspelled a word 216 00:09:01,820 --> 00:08:59,580 well is this the word you really man 217 00:09:03,350 --> 00:09:01,830 through it well that means that the 218 00:09:04,550 --> 00:09:03,360 Descent there's all this processing 219 00:09:07,370 --> 00:09:04,560 going on you can think of the computer 220 00:09:09,590 --> 00:09:07,380 screen as what's conscious right and 221 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:09,600 everything else which is almost much 222 00:09:13,579 --> 00:09:11,850 much larger as that is going on so yeah 223 00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:13,589 even if people don't acknowledge that 224 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:14,790 that's their metaphor 225 00:09:18,770 --> 00:09:16,770 it makes the question so whose is 226 00:09:21,290 --> 00:09:18,780 homunculus who looks out and says don't 227 00:09:23,180 --> 00:09:21,300 see that right it's just not a problem 228 00:09:27,199 --> 00:09:23,190 anymore right that's interesting 229 00:09:29,060 --> 00:09:27,209 um okay so rich I'm going to break it 230 00:09:31,370 --> 00:09:29,070 off there because I've really broken up 231 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:31,380 this clip into two parts because it's so 232 00:09:35,180 --> 00:09:32,730 great it's so 233 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:35,190 it's so brilliant I love what you've 234 00:09:39,829 --> 00:09:37,410 done and I love his answer let's talk 235 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:39,839 about that first part I love this little 236 00:09:45,710 --> 00:09:41,970 bit of history about how subliminal 237 00:09:49,069 --> 00:09:45,720 messaging went from this tremendous fad 238 00:09:52,370 --> 00:09:49,079 to being totally debunked to quietly 239 00:09:54,829 --> 00:09:52,380 being accepted as fact and you can't 240 00:09:57,980 --> 00:09:54,839 help but feel that maybe he's drawing 241 00:10:01,569 --> 00:09:57,990 some parallels there to what might 242 00:10:04,850 --> 00:10:01,579 happen in the future with parapsychology 243 00:10:07,189 --> 00:10:04,860 yeah yeah absolutely I I agree I was 244 00:10:09,230 --> 00:10:07,199 wondering how you and/or the you know 245 00:10:11,090 --> 00:10:09,240 the skeptical constituency in general 246 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:11,100 would would sort of respond to that 247 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:14,610 because it is interesting about how the 248 00:10:20,060 --> 00:10:17,970 sort of the metaphors for mind or 249 00:10:22,639 --> 00:10:20,070 consciousness that sort of creep into 250 00:10:25,220 --> 00:10:22,649 the scientific community from extra 251 00:10:28,449 --> 00:10:25,230 scientific sources very often seem to 252 00:10:31,180 --> 00:10:28,459 configure what questions 253 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:31,190 scientists are allowed to pursue even 254 00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:34,290 for when they're investigating things 255 00:10:37,069 --> 00:10:36,720 like consciousness so I was curious you 256 00:10:39,199 --> 00:10:37,079 know 257 00:10:41,750 --> 00:10:39,209 all right the switchboard versus the 258 00:10:43,970 --> 00:10:41,760 computer analogy I thought was wonderful 259 00:10:47,090 --> 00:10:43,980 wonderful and it really strikes home 260 00:10:48,980 --> 00:10:47,100 absolutely yeah yeah okay let's play the 261 00:10:52,309 --> 00:10:48,990 second part of this clip and chat a 262 00:10:55,879 --> 00:10:52,319 little bit about that are there theories 263 00:10:58,160 --> 00:10:55,889 of precognition it's like oh okay sort 264 00:11:00,500 --> 00:10:58,170 of ontological II what is going on yes 265 00:11:03,530 --> 00:11:00,510 well there are a couple things here 266 00:11:05,059 --> 00:11:03,540 first of all physics had its moment of 267 00:11:07,309 --> 00:11:05,069 embarrassment but extraordinary 268 00:11:10,460 --> 00:11:07,319 knowledge in the 20th century right and 269 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:10,470 so quantum theory in quantum mechanics 270 00:11:15,710 --> 00:11:14,010 has never had an empirical failure that 271 00:11:17,509 --> 00:11:15,720 is to the degree you can measure within 272 00:11:19,340 --> 00:11:17,519 the error of measurement every 273 00:11:21,949 --> 00:11:19,350 prediction made by quantum mechanics has 274 00:11:24,889 --> 00:11:21,959 come true the thing that so boggles the 275 00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:24,899 mind of cycle of physicists in the 20th 276 00:11:27,889 --> 00:11:27,120 century was no one knows how it works 277 00:11:30,019 --> 00:11:27,899 yeah 278 00:11:32,509 --> 00:11:30,029 so even Fineman who won a nobel prize 279 00:11:34,430 --> 00:11:32,519 for all of this said stop beating 280 00:11:38,109 --> 00:11:34,440 yourself up by asking but how can this 281 00:11:41,199 --> 00:11:38,119 be nobody knows how this can be 282 00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:41,209 psychologists and non physicists 283 00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:43,769 generally don't know that that conundrum 284 00:11:48,350 --> 00:11:46,529 exists in some in physics they say well 285 00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:48,360 I don't have the mathematical knowledge 286 00:11:53,179 --> 00:11:51,600 to know what quantum mechanics is they 287 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:53,189 should give themselves more credit 288 00:11:59,030 --> 00:11:56,610 no one knows no one has an understanding 289 00:12:01,639 --> 00:11:59,040 of the mechanics of how it works and 290 00:12:03,379 --> 00:12:01,649 there were bitter fights with Einstein 291 00:12:09,859 --> 00:12:03,389 being ending up on sort of the wrong 292 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:09,869 side and so that has caused physicists 293 00:12:12,079 --> 00:12:11,610 to be much more humble or to just ignore 294 00:12:13,729 --> 00:12:12,089 it 295 00:12:15,499 --> 00:12:13,739 I'm there's a there's a branch of 296 00:12:17,239 --> 00:12:15,509 physics that we call door open shut up 297 00:12:19,069 --> 00:12:17,249 and calculate difference don't worry 298 00:12:22,189 --> 00:12:19,079 about the foundational questions yeah 299 00:12:25,910 --> 00:12:22,199 and I I don't think psychologists just 300 00:12:29,090 --> 00:12:25,920 as one non physics group has yet had 301 00:12:31,579 --> 00:12:29,100 their world shaken up to that extent now 302 00:12:35,359 --> 00:12:31,589 some side researchers actually think 303 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:35,369 quantum mechanics does contain the seeds 304 00:12:39,769 --> 00:12:37,529 of an explanation it has to do with what 305 00:12:41,090 --> 00:12:39,779 we call quantum entanglement right now 306 00:12:43,730 --> 00:12:41,100 they're technical arguments why that 307 00:12:45,769 --> 00:12:43,740 won't work but every week in physics 308 00:12:47,539 --> 00:12:45,779 there's usually some new paper that 309 00:12:49,039 --> 00:12:47,549 shows guess what we found entanglement 310 00:12:51,169 --> 00:12:49,049 at higher temperatures than we would 311 00:12:53,359 --> 00:12:51,179 have expected or at longer distances 312 00:12:56,299 --> 00:12:53,369 yeah or at a more macro level in macro 313 00:12:58,460 --> 00:12:56,309 level yeah and and so some of the SCI 314 00:13:01,220 --> 00:12:58,470 researchers believe that that's going to 315 00:13:04,489 --> 00:13:01,230 be it what are you thinking well there's 316 00:13:06,379 --> 00:13:04,499 a paradox here you I think at some point 317 00:13:09,079 --> 00:13:06,389 quantum mechanics may well provide a 318 00:13:11,389 --> 00:13:09,089 mechanism but quantum mechanics does not 319 00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:11,399 provide us with an explanation of 320 00:13:16,789 --> 00:13:14,240 reality that is that we understand that 321 00:13:18,889 --> 00:13:16,799 usually what we mean by what do we mean 322 00:13:21,829 --> 00:13:18,899 by understand we mean that we can relate 323 00:13:25,309 --> 00:13:21,839 what is new to what we already accept as 324 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:25,319 a given so here he provides this really 325 00:13:32,359 --> 00:13:29,730 fresh look at quantum mechanics and how 326 00:13:34,639 --> 00:13:32,369 we're supposed to understand it as a non 327 00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:34,649 physicist and I love how he says you 328 00:13:39,169 --> 00:13:36,959 know psychologists step up and call 329 00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:39,179 their bluff a little bit because nobody 330 00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:42,070 knows what's going on here 331 00:13:47,850 --> 00:13:44,649 yeah III found that really interesting 332 00:13:50,519 --> 00:13:47,860 and then at the interview I did a few of 333 00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:50,529 the other interviews people touched on 334 00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:52,480 that issue opportunity the one with 335 00:13:57,150 --> 00:13:54,910 George Williams that sort of directly 336 00:13:58,559 --> 00:13:57,160 addresses the the sigh and the problem 337 00:14:02,100 --> 00:13:58,569 of consciousness I think that was his 338 00:14:03,930 --> 00:14:02,110 title but I I think that notion that a 339 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:03,940 theory for non material consciousness 340 00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:06,970 inside phenomenon coming from quantum 341 00:14:11,490 --> 00:14:09,040 mechanics is just almost as old as the 342 00:14:14,850 --> 00:14:11,500 hills as far as research goes and and 343 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:14,860 and and I'm familiar with how ideas like 344 00:14:18,749 --> 00:14:16,930 entanglement and complementarity and 345 00:14:20,519 --> 00:14:18,759 observer dependent measurement and all 346 00:14:22,620 --> 00:14:20,529 these things they talk about sort of 347 00:14:25,499 --> 00:14:22,630 relate to consciousness studies but I 348 00:14:28,829 --> 00:14:25,509 always get the sense and I I think maybe 349 00:14:32,639 --> 00:14:28,839 this is what a Daryl BEM thinks as well 350 00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:32,649 that come on physics in a sense and it 351 00:14:38,939 --> 00:14:34,630 just sort of pushes the problem of 352 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:38,949 reconciling a mechanistic material brain 353 00:14:44,519 --> 00:14:42,310 with a subjective intentional qualia 354 00:14:46,949 --> 00:14:44,529 Laden consciousness just one step 355 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:46,959 further back almost without solving it 356 00:14:50,699 --> 00:14:48,730 Oh completely I think that's 357 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:50,709 acknowledged when you really push him 358 00:14:55,620 --> 00:14:53,170 and what I think BEM does a great job is 359 00:14:58,740 --> 00:14:55,630 making it clear that that's what they're 360 00:15:00,600 --> 00:14:58,750 doing and kind of calling folks on this 361 00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:00,610 push back that we hear all the time 362 00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:03,519 which is oh don't start talking about 363 00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:05,680 quantum physics you don't know what 364 00:15:09,540 --> 00:15:07,600 you're talking about and his pushback is 365 00:15:12,090 --> 00:15:09,550 yeah well you don't know what you're 366 00:15:13,889 --> 00:15:12,100 talking about either and and I think the 367 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:13,899 way he relates that to real science 368 00:15:17,550 --> 00:15:15,730 rather than just two people standing 369 00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:17,560 talking about how much they don't know 370 00:15:21,780 --> 00:15:19,839 about the gap here I love is pushback 371 00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:21,790 about an entanglement and how there's 372 00:15:26,540 --> 00:15:25,120 news coming out every day and he does a 373 00:15:29,030 --> 00:15:26,550 great job of saying it you know 374 00:15:31,790 --> 00:15:29,040 entanglement at the higher temperatures 375 00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:31,800 entanglement at higher ordered 376 00:15:35,579 --> 00:15:34,480 biological structures and I know I'm a 377 00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:35,589 constructor 378 00:15:39,509 --> 00:15:37,120 yeah I've stumbled across some of that 379 00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:39,519 research and bounced it off of some 380 00:15:44,069 --> 00:15:42,310 folks in the neuroscience consciousness 381 00:15:46,410 --> 00:15:44,079 camp and they're generally ignorant of 382 00:15:49,139 --> 00:15:46,420 that too so I think he makes a very 383 00:15:51,179 --> 00:15:49,149 valid point there I do as well yeah and 384 00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:51,189 I think that is the common refrain you 385 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:53,680 hear from the skeptical community 386 00:15:58,540 --> 00:15:55,250 particularly physicists and 387 00:16:00,460 --> 00:15:58,550 and neuroscientists who talk about the 388 00:16:02,890 --> 00:16:00,470 impossibility of this these kind of 389 00:16:04,330 --> 00:16:02,900 dynamics operating at the you know the 390 00:16:07,150 --> 00:16:04,340 level of what they call the hot wet 391 00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:07,160 brain and and all those kinds of 392 00:16:12,010 --> 00:16:09,110 objections but it 393 00:16:17,530 --> 00:16:12,020 III think Darrell Dems sort of 394 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:17,540 cautionary um admonition to to not not 395 00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:20,450 come to such dogmatic conclusions at 396 00:16:25,630 --> 00:16:23,510 this point in time is a really good one 397 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:25,640 that's that perhaps the skeptical 398 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:29,090 community should should you know take 399 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:31,610 under advisement and that we really have 400 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:33,050 to stop saying skeptical community 401 00:16:38,230 --> 00:16:35,570 because it's really mainstream science 402 00:16:40,810 --> 00:16:38,240 in general they're just yeah they're 403 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:40,820 just running cover for everyone else who 404 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:43,490 hides behind that dismissive attitude of 405 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:45,770 we don't have to pay attention to sigh 406 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:47,090 we don't have to pay attention to 407 00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:49,910 parapsychology because you just said 408 00:16:53,290 --> 00:16:51,440 quantum mechanics and you don't know 409 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:53,300 what it means but hey let's move on you 410 00:16:58,240 --> 00:16:53,810 mentioned 411 00:17:02,620 --> 00:16:58,250 Williams intro that clip for us sure 412 00:17:04,449 --> 00:17:02,630 George Williams against paper was on his 413 00:17:06,550 --> 00:17:04,459 entitled sigh and the problem of 414 00:17:08,130 --> 00:17:06,560 consciousness which really enticed me 415 00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:08,140 because that to me was sort of a 416 00:17:14,490 --> 00:17:11,240 foundational question that was driving 417 00:17:17,199 --> 00:17:14,500 my own project and an interest in 418 00:17:18,939 --> 00:17:17,209 parapsychology and these interviews and 419 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:18,949 he was the only presenter there actually 420 00:17:24,069 --> 00:17:20,930 was a relative unknown in the 421 00:17:25,569 --> 00:17:24,079 parapsychological field and community 422 00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:25,579 but he's a very bright guy and very 423 00:17:30,850 --> 00:17:28,790 well-read I think by training economists 424 00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:30,860 rather than a psychiatrist and 425 00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:32,480 neuroscientist or physicist or anything 426 00:17:39,220 --> 00:17:37,280 but his his overview was a very good 427 00:17:41,830 --> 00:17:39,230 philosophical discussion about how 428 00:17:43,690 --> 00:17:41,840 empirical research like the global 429 00:17:46,060 --> 00:17:43,700 consciousness problem in the larger 430 00:17:47,710 --> 00:17:46,070 interview he talked more about that and 431 00:17:49,690 --> 00:17:47,720 in his presentation he's particularly 432 00:17:52,030 --> 00:17:49,700 interested in that on how that kind of 433 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:52,040 research speaks to the traditional 434 00:17:57,820 --> 00:17:54,650 mind-body debate and he suggested that a 435 00:17:59,980 --> 00:17:57,830 theory for SCI phenomenon and for 436 00:18:02,800 --> 00:17:59,990 non-physical consciousness generally 437 00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:02,810 might well come from quantum physics and 438 00:18:08,350 --> 00:18:06,320 his in the area that he thought was most 439 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:08,360 promising in that regard would be on 440 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:09,370 david bombs 441 00:18:13,730 --> 00:18:11,530 notion of sort of the implicit order via 442 00:18:17,220 --> 00:18:13,740 the hidden variables kind of theory of 443 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:17,230 quantum dynamics so that's kind of what 444 00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:19,570 this interview was was all about okay 445 00:18:25,740 --> 00:18:22,480 let's listen the most scientific thing 446 00:18:28,170 --> 00:18:25,750 we can do is simply at this point accept 447 00:18:30,750 --> 00:18:28,180 the data that is and consider seriously 448 00:18:32,850 --> 00:18:30,760 what it means to our world through our 449 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:32,860 reality now my interpretation might not 450 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:36,370 be correct but at least I am accepting 451 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:38,610 the day I'm saying well you know given 452 00:18:45,450 --> 00:18:41,650 given the meta studies that Dean Radin 453 00:18:48,180 --> 00:18:45,460 and Jessica Utz and others who have have 454 00:18:51,150 --> 00:18:48,190 looked at we should if we're going to 455 00:18:54,299 --> 00:18:51,160 follow through scientifically we have to 456 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:54,309 we have to now that the evidence is 457 00:18:58,260 --> 00:18:56,650 basically in is what I'm saying yeah so 458 00:18:59,780 --> 00:18:58,270 that's basically okay and and then in 459 00:19:01,980 --> 00:18:59,790 regards to the problem of consciousness 460 00:19:04,830 --> 00:19:01,990 specifically you did a really good job I 461 00:19:08,750 --> 00:19:04,840 thought you know I'm clarifying for a 462 00:19:12,150 --> 00:19:08,760 non philosophical audience the sort of 463 00:19:13,890 --> 00:19:12,160 three three general prescriptions you've 464 00:19:17,250 --> 00:19:13,900 got materialism on one end of the 465 00:19:19,020 --> 00:19:17,260 spectrum dualism mind-body dualism in 466 00:19:21,630 --> 00:19:19,030 the middle of course and then what you 467 00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:21,640 describe is pants psychism at the sort 468 00:19:26,630 --> 00:19:23,110 of the other end of the spectrum if you 469 00:19:33,450 --> 00:19:30,120 briefly materialism dualism spans 470 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:33,460 psychism what are they and what are you 471 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:36,370 contending then that side that size 472 00:19:42,090 --> 00:19:39,850 evidence of yes well materialism is 473 00:19:46,260 --> 00:19:42,100 basically the idea that everything that 474 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:46,270 is consciousness is somehow emerged from 475 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:48,730 from from matter and this is something 476 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:52,210 that I think most scientists believe or 477 00:19:57,270 --> 00:19:54,610 are trying very hard to believe yeah 478 00:20:01,830 --> 00:19:57,280 even though there's not no one really 479 00:20:04,590 --> 00:20:01,840 has any good way of explaining how how 480 00:20:07,110 --> 00:20:04,600 non conscious matter atoms and molecules 481 00:20:09,570 --> 00:20:07,120 and so forth can actually somehow give 482 00:20:11,970 --> 00:20:09,580 us conscious or Russell contacts yet so 483 00:20:14,370 --> 00:20:11,980 and this is this is a very difficult 484 00:20:15,930 --> 00:20:14,380 problem David Chalmers has termed this 485 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:15,940 the hard problem of consciousness how 486 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:18,610 how do we explain why we experience 487 00:20:23,340 --> 00:20:21,730 anything right now the other so that so 488 00:20:25,230 --> 00:20:23,350 then you know there are other some 489 00:20:26,870 --> 00:20:25,240 alternatives and the two that I 490 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:26,880 discussed and I think these are the main 491 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:30,610 classes of it would be dualism which is 492 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:33,010 basically somehow that consciousness or 493 00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:35,170 maybe some people might easily prefer 494 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:37,390 the term spirit is fundamentally 495 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:39,010 different from you know the physical 496 00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:43,090 body or or or matter right and so as I 497 00:20:48,180 --> 00:20:45,520 mentioned the challenges of those who 498 00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:48,190 want to who favor dualism is to try to 499 00:20:52,460 --> 00:20:50,160 explain how these two fundamental 500 00:20:56,430 --> 00:20:52,470 substances can interact with one another 501 00:20:58,800 --> 00:20:56,440 and then you've got what I term Pan 502 00:21:01,200 --> 00:20:58,810 psychism and I also used another term 503 00:21:03,990 --> 00:21:01,210 neutral monism and I think they're very 504 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:04,000 closely related yeah basically paying 505 00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:06,730 psychism is the idea that everything all 506 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:11,470 material objects bodies biological 507 00:21:16,230 --> 00:21:13,450 structures and so forth have some kind 508 00:21:17,930 --> 00:21:16,240 of awareness have some sort of mental or 509 00:21:21,290 --> 00:21:17,940 experiential component 510 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:21,300 and neutral monism is a similar term and 511 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:24,690 that is is that basically consciousness 512 00:21:29,540 --> 00:21:26,850 and matter are you know sort of like 513 00:21:32,990 --> 00:21:29,550 maybe two aspects of some sort of maybe 514 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:33,000 some greater underlying you know reality 515 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:34,890 and and in your and in your estimation 516 00:21:41,540 --> 00:21:39,570 of course psy phenomenon make belief in 517 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:41,550 a very simplistic kind of materialism 518 00:21:47,990 --> 00:21:46,050 very difficult whereas one of those 519 00:21:51,230 --> 00:21:48,000 other two alternatives either dualism 520 00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:51,240 more and psychism obviously comports 521 00:21:57,770 --> 00:21:53,360 with the evidence we have from from 522 00:22:00,110 --> 00:21:57,780 outside better yes yes the Desai 523 00:22:02,750 --> 00:22:00,120 experiments but such as for example the 524 00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:02,760 the ganzfeld experiments and there have 525 00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:04,950 been meta studies which combine all 526 00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:06,510 those different studies together and 527 00:22:11,420 --> 00:22:09,120 find that the results are very robust 528 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:11,430 that the effect size does not diminish 529 00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:15,570 mom and I think Darrell Ben's paper with 530 00:22:22,010 --> 00:22:17,910 yet with Jaclyn Orton and also Daryl BEM 531 00:22:24,170 --> 00:22:22,020 gave a sort of a follow-up rebuttal to I 532 00:22:26,510 --> 00:22:24,180 think it was Wiseman basically showing 533 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:26,520 that if you follow the protocols that 534 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:28,530 they've laid out that you get very 535 00:22:33,770 --> 00:22:31,050 robust results but anyway in guns field 536 00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:33,780 they they use electromagnetic shielding 537 00:22:38,750 --> 00:22:36,110 to kind of like prevent any kind of 538 00:22:41,060 --> 00:22:38,760 electromagnetic transmission between 539 00:22:43,250 --> 00:22:41,070 sender and object okay so there really 540 00:22:47,030 --> 00:22:43,260 no sort of physical there's nothing 541 00:22:49,250 --> 00:22:47,040 about you know the physical energy that 542 00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:49,260 can explain those kinds of phenomena 543 00:22:56,330 --> 00:22:53,520 right and so and so we so we really have 544 00:22:59,540 --> 00:22:56,340 to look at something else and as you 545 00:23:02,120 --> 00:22:59,550 point out the main alternatives can be 546 00:23:05,090 --> 00:23:02,130 classified as either dualism or ends 547 00:23:09,530 --> 00:23:05,100 like ISM you know the trombone ISM and 548 00:23:13,990 --> 00:23:09,540 and and again the your contention then 549 00:23:19,340 --> 00:23:14,000 is the the one possibly plausible 550 00:23:22,970 --> 00:23:19,350 scientific approach to reconciling the 551 00:23:27,340 --> 00:23:22,980 the seeming impossibility of a material 552 00:23:29,780 --> 00:23:27,350 brain having this conscious experience 553 00:23:32,450 --> 00:23:29,790 it's conscious eye experience of other 554 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:32,460 things would be it can be found in 555 00:23:40,340 --> 00:23:35,450 quantum dynamics is that is that fair 556 00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:40,350 well quantum mechanics is is a very sort 557 00:23:47,150 --> 00:23:42,720 of it quantum mechanics actually has its 558 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:47,160 own mysteries itself and there are a 559 00:23:51,650 --> 00:23:49,650 number of explanations but when you look 560 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:51,660 closely at what's going on at quantum 561 00:23:58,700 --> 00:23:53,970 mechanics those don't really fit very 562 00:24:04,580 --> 00:23:58,710 well with our are normally accepted 563 00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:04,590 views of of reality yeah well yes what 564 00:24:08,300 --> 00:24:06,240 we could call let's say the Newtonian 565 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:08,310 classical yeah you know ways of thinking 566 00:24:16,490 --> 00:24:11,250 about our world so in quantum mechanics 567 00:24:20,690 --> 00:24:16,500 you have basically you you you based on 568 00:24:22,670 --> 00:24:20,700 on how the experiment is observed you 569 00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:22,680 can get very different results either 570 00:24:28,070 --> 00:24:25,310 that suggests some sort of particle like 571 00:24:29,930 --> 00:24:28,080 you know in other words that you've got 572 00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:29,940 a particle or something that looks like 573 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:32,400 waves and niels bohr was the one who 574 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:33,930 kind of came up with the idea it looks 575 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:35,970 like there's some sort of problem the 576 00:24:38,390 --> 00:24:37,130 waves are actually some sort of 577 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:38,400 probabilistic 578 00:24:44,930 --> 00:24:41,490 component of what's going on with these 579 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:44,940 subatomic particles right and and as you 580 00:24:51,290 --> 00:24:47,130 probably are aware a lots of many people 581 00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:51,300 seem to argue that that the observation 582 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:54,240 that the observer object relationship is 583 00:25:00,680 --> 00:24:57,450 so integral and so kind of like woven 584 00:25:02,210 --> 00:25:00,690 together that you actually presumably 585 00:25:04,910 --> 00:25:02,220 need to bring in something like 586 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:04,920 consciousness to really sort of explain 587 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:07,170 completely the phenomena now that's a 588 00:25:10,550 --> 00:25:08,730 controversial idea right not all 589 00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:10,560 physicists want to go there right but 590 00:25:16,409 --> 00:25:13,110 it's difficult to totally exclude that 591 00:25:19,029 --> 00:25:16,419 as a possible explanation okay 592 00:25:21,399 --> 00:25:19,039 great so you really get a sense for what 593 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:21,409 you're talking about I love how he seems 594 00:25:25,390 --> 00:25:23,570 to come at this so fresh you know it's 595 00:25:27,610 --> 00:25:25,400 like hey isn't Dean Raiden's 596 00:25:30,909 --> 00:25:27,620 meta-analysis really terrific and we all 597 00:25:32,770 --> 00:25:30,919 want to go yeah yeah it is I mean why 598 00:25:34,299 --> 00:25:32,780 don't more people get it and they or 599 00:25:36,250 --> 00:25:34,309 somebody coming in freshmen come yeah 600 00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:36,260 that's just the day that we have to deal 601 00:25:41,649 --> 00:25:38,720 with it why is that such a novel concept 602 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:41,659 that we have to deal with good data yeah 603 00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:42,530 absolutely 604 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:46,190 yeah yeah I was wondering how you'd feel 605 00:25:52,690 --> 00:25:50,090 about up about what he was saying in a 606 00:25:54,250 --> 00:25:52,700 sense I guess his insights aren't 607 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:54,260 necessarily original but I thought they 608 00:25:59,289 --> 00:25:56,330 were very well articulated and on 609 00:26:04,090 --> 00:25:59,299 something that I think if you're looking 610 00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:04,100 at the implications of the saira search 611 00:26:09,970 --> 00:26:07,520 in particular for what the nature and 612 00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:09,980 character of consciousness might be I 613 00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:14,510 thought he did a really good job of sort 614 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:16,130 of placing it on the spectrum there 615 00:26:22,090 --> 00:26:18,530 right and you know the big takeaway from 616 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:22,100 me all that is materialism is dead 617 00:26:27,539 --> 00:26:24,770 materialism has been falsified for all 618 00:26:30,130 --> 00:26:27,549 intents purposes it's falsified and 619 00:26:32,770 --> 00:26:30,140 that's the really big step and I think 620 00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:32,780 that's how he lays out the landscape as 621 00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:33,710 well mm-hm 622 00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:37,809 yeah I agree okay so next Athena Drew's 623 00:26:44,020 --> 00:26:41,120 dr. Athena's ruse is actually another 624 00:26:44,890 --> 00:26:44,030 fascinating person with a really 625 00:26:48,430 --> 00:26:44,900 interesting career 626 00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:48,440 she's a psychotherapist by training and 627 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:50,510 she's actually worked in the past with 628 00:26:53,980 --> 00:26:52,850 Stanley Crippler and chuck honorton and 629 00:26:56,169 --> 00:26:53,990 some of these big names at the 630 00:26:58,120 --> 00:26:56,179 psychophysics research laboratory and 631 00:27:00,909 --> 00:26:58,130 Maimonides during those famous 632 00:27:03,610 --> 00:27:00,919 experiments that Crippler did in the was 633 00:27:07,270 --> 00:27:03,620 at the late 60s I guess at Maimonides 634 00:27:09,220 --> 00:27:07,280 Hospital and she's um her clinical work 635 00:27:11,010 --> 00:27:09,230 or clinical specialty involves work with 636 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:11,020 children and she has this ongoing 637 00:27:16,149 --> 00:27:14,210 project via a website if I can remember 638 00:27:19,539 --> 00:27:16,159 the name I think it's called perceptive 639 00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:19,549 children org in which she receives 640 00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:23,600 emails from from children who among 641 00:27:29,420 --> 00:27:27,110 other things have these experiences sort 642 00:27:32,270 --> 00:27:29,430 of paranormal or parapsychological 643 00:27:35,210 --> 00:27:32,280 and her presentation she gave several 644 00:27:37,940 --> 00:27:35,220 presentations actually at this at this 645 00:27:40,670 --> 00:27:37,950 convocation but the one that I focused 646 00:27:43,220 --> 00:27:40,680 on was this fascinating quantitative 647 00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:43,230 qualitative sort of comparison between a 648 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:46,200 survey of email correspondences that she 649 00:27:51,549 --> 00:27:48,090 has received on her website over the 650 00:27:55,750 --> 00:27:51,559 past year with a survey of letters to 651 00:27:58,220 --> 00:27:55,760 Eliza Rhine at the Rhine Research Center 652 00:27:59,750 --> 00:27:58,230 you know she was a a very well-known 653 00:28:02,390 --> 00:27:59,760 figure of course at the Ryan Research 654 00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:02,400 Center during the late 60s and 70s and 655 00:28:08,930 --> 00:28:05,130 both of these sets of correspondences 656 00:28:12,010 --> 00:28:08,940 were from children and teenagers and she 657 00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:12,020 uncovered some fascinating just 658 00:28:16,130 --> 00:28:14,370 demographic data regarding age and 659 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:16,140 gender and the type of phenomenon they 660 00:28:20,660 --> 00:28:19,050 reported and talked about it and just 661 00:28:23,630 --> 00:28:20,670 talk about the comparison contrast 662 00:28:25,340 --> 00:28:23,640 between them so unfortunately extra I 663 00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:25,350 provide here is just a segment of the 664 00:28:28,580 --> 00:28:26,880 interview in which I asked her to 665 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:28,590 respond to some of the potential 666 00:28:33,890 --> 00:28:31,890 criticisms of her findings and speculate 667 00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:33,900 about its implication regarding nature 668 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:36,960 of consciousness of course but that 669 00:28:41,810 --> 00:28:39,690 general it I guess you should understand 670 00:28:43,370 --> 00:28:41,820 it within the context of the that 671 00:28:46,220 --> 00:28:43,380 general interview and the general 672 00:28:48,740 --> 00:28:46,230 subject that she talked about okay let's 673 00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:48,750 give a listen I thought maybe if we 674 00:28:55,250 --> 00:28:52,910 could run down a list of possible 675 00:28:59,030 --> 00:28:55,260 explanations for these experiences that 676 00:29:02,210 --> 00:28:59,040 people might offer what your response to 677 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:02,220 them is the first of them of course from 678 00:29:07,370 --> 00:29:04,050 the hard-nosed skeptics who don't 679 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:07,380 believe anything fraud or you know 680 00:29:11,950 --> 00:29:09,890 confabulation of some sort 681 00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:11,960 do you think that that did I mean do you 682 00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:15,769 get the sense that in maybe not a 683 00:29:20,380 --> 00:29:17,600 majority but is there a significant 684 00:29:22,149 --> 00:29:20,390 amount of anything like that that you 685 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:22,159 get the impression you're encountering 686 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:26,450 in your letters or no I feel that as the 687 00:29:32,110 --> 00:29:29,570 wiser Ryan field had has felt when she 688 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:32,120 received 13,000 letters of many people 689 00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:34,610 that these are well-meaning sane people 690 00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:38,000 who are not out to manipulate or to scam 691 00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:41,120 and and be fraudulent in any way there 692 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:43,279 there's nothing to gain from it and and 693 00:29:49,210 --> 00:29:45,730 the emails the conversations I've had 694 00:29:51,370 --> 00:29:49,220 through the emails are very sincere and 695 00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:51,380 very sane individuals and the parents 696 00:29:56,379 --> 00:29:54,110 you know themselves are seem to be 697 00:29:59,889 --> 00:29:56,389 noteworthy for being pretty normal 698 00:30:02,740 --> 00:29:59,899 people so I I tend to doubt it's it 699 00:30:03,909 --> 00:30:02,750 would be fraud on any level 700 00:30:05,950 --> 00:30:03,919 these are CH and I'm den I'm 701 00:30:07,149 --> 00:30:05,960 anticipating the skeptical response even 702 00:30:09,129 --> 00:30:07,159 from within our field there's a 703 00:30:11,919 --> 00:30:09,139 supportive mounted within the field of 704 00:30:14,769 --> 00:30:11,929 parapsychology right that these are 705 00:30:18,940 --> 00:30:14,779 children so there's a magic as the issue 706 00:30:20,860 --> 00:30:18,950 of imagination would you attribute a lot 707 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:20,870 or any of these are a significant amount 708 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:23,210 of these reports to that just plain 709 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:26,330 they're seeing things in the shadows and 710 00:30:30,759 --> 00:30:28,970 really honestly making laws mistake and 711 00:30:32,860 --> 00:30:30,769 that is a possibility and I raise that 712 00:30:35,409 --> 00:30:32,870 to the parents especially if children 713 00:30:37,299 --> 00:30:35,419 say between two and five or six that 714 00:30:40,419 --> 00:30:37,309 were imaginary claimants at playmates 715 00:30:43,899 --> 00:30:40,429 are normal developmental components and 716 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:43,909 it could be just their imagination but 717 00:30:48,879 --> 00:30:46,370 they sort it out keep a journal and they 718 00:30:51,639 --> 00:30:48,889 look at some of the details and they 719 00:30:53,930 --> 00:30:51,649 they're consistent stories are they do 720 00:30:56,060 --> 00:30:53,940 you follow up in that do you follow up 721 00:30:58,310 --> 00:30:56,070 honestly with with with a lot of them 722 00:31:01,129 --> 00:30:58,320 and that's and that way to verify the 723 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:01,139 for some of them they do respond I we do 724 00:31:05,060 --> 00:31:02,610 have a little correspondence back and 725 00:31:06,889 --> 00:31:05,070 forth around it and I'll say well it 726 00:31:08,269 --> 00:31:06,899 could be imaginary playmates I you know 727 00:31:10,129 --> 00:31:08,279 from what you're describing it's hard 728 00:31:12,139 --> 00:31:10,139 for me to tell and they may follow up 729 00:31:13,789 --> 00:31:12,149 with another email with much more detail 730 00:31:16,369 --> 00:31:13,799 at that point because we're not sure 731 00:31:18,740 --> 00:31:16,379 about me either in this website what am 732 00:31:20,810 --> 00:31:18,750 I going to do this information yeah and 733 00:31:22,639 --> 00:31:20,820 it can be also the parents reaction to 734 00:31:24,499 --> 00:31:22,649 it you know if they're they're into this 735 00:31:26,769 --> 00:31:24,509 stuff if they look like Oh tell me more 736 00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:26,779 the child may want to create more 737 00:31:33,049 --> 00:31:30,000 experiences to get attention yeah but 738 00:31:34,039 --> 00:31:33,059 generally I'm I'm not seeing it it's 739 00:31:37,070 --> 00:31:34,049 just imagination 740 00:31:40,399 --> 00:31:37,080 okay yes some of that could be yeah but 741 00:31:42,499 --> 00:31:40,409 overall no yeah I wouldn't say they all 742 00:31:44,389 --> 00:31:42,509 right well we're not we're not done with 743 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:44,399 the skeptical responsive neural 744 00:31:49,460 --> 00:31:47,250 malfunction of some sort the temporal 745 00:31:52,389 --> 00:31:49,470 lobe seizures or something and it's very 746 00:31:55,730 --> 00:31:52,399 possible do Jacob that impression 747 00:31:57,619 --> 00:31:55,740 formation hopes and there are a small 748 00:31:59,330 --> 00:31:57,629 percentage of the parents are writing in 749 00:32:02,570 --> 00:31:59,340 that their child might have some kind of 750 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:02,580 physical yeah thing we do explore that I 751 00:32:07,789 --> 00:32:05,610 would say the vast majority are not it 752 00:32:09,409 --> 00:32:07,799 could be a small percentage but to rule 753 00:32:13,009 --> 00:32:09,419 them all that based on that I wouldn't 754 00:32:16,159 --> 00:32:13,019 okay and the other one and you're a 755 00:32:17,539 --> 00:32:16,169 therapist so I thought you might this 756 00:32:20,539 --> 00:32:17,549 might have occurred I'm sure this 757 00:32:23,990 --> 00:32:20,549 occurred to you what what do you see the 758 00:32:27,259 --> 00:32:24,000 implications of that well I think that 759 00:32:29,060 --> 00:32:27,269 it's the research certainly and the 760 00:32:32,090 --> 00:32:29,070 emails about seen disscourn eight 761 00:32:34,369 --> 00:32:32,100 figures and the spirits has the 762 00:32:36,169 --> 00:32:34,379 implication that there's a separation of 763 00:32:38,629 --> 00:32:36,179 mind and body that can occur at death 764 00:32:41,629 --> 00:32:38,639 and that our consciousness can survive 765 00:32:44,659 --> 00:32:41,639 and does survive physical death 766 00:32:47,359 --> 00:32:44,669 and possibly has other lifetimes after 767 00:32:50,779 --> 00:32:47,369 that and this is not the only one so 768 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:50,789 that has a huge implication for a lot of 769 00:32:57,139 --> 00:32:54,450 religion and a lot of political kinds of 770 00:32:58,940 --> 00:32:57,149 things people's own view of what this 771 00:33:03,139 --> 00:32:58,950 lifetime is about and their body is 772 00:33:05,810 --> 00:33:03,149 about so definitely that the the mind 773 00:33:09,139 --> 00:33:05,820 that there's a spirit in us that does 774 00:33:11,329 --> 00:33:09,149 survive death and and your research has 775 00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:11,339 convinced you of that Earth's convinced 776 00:33:17,060 --> 00:33:14,609 too strong a word for scientists um I 777 00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:17,070 would say my personal experiences with 778 00:33:22,639 --> 00:33:19,440 the foundation of it as a child of 779 00:33:24,499 --> 00:33:22,649 wandering how this can happen how how 780 00:33:26,959 --> 00:33:24,509 can he have a precognitive dream about 781 00:33:30,019 --> 00:33:26,969 something that's yet to happen and then 782 00:33:32,629 --> 00:33:30,029 it does happen you know how can you see 783 00:33:35,359 --> 00:33:32,639 things you know after somebody's die 784 00:33:40,099 --> 00:33:35,369 after someone dead and have contact from 785 00:33:42,199 --> 00:33:40,109 them what does that all mean so it 786 00:33:44,419 --> 00:33:42,209 started me questioning and the research 787 00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:44,429 just helps validate and the children's 788 00:33:49,219 --> 00:33:47,279 experience just helps validate that they 789 00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:49,229 are all aural seeing and feeling the 790 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:52,049 same thing all right and and and and it 791 00:33:57,049 --> 00:33:54,570 is ultimately do you think the essence 792 00:34:00,639 --> 00:33:57,059 of what we are or the essence of canta 793 00:34:03,349 --> 00:34:00,649 canta dimension of what we are is 794 00:34:04,789 --> 00:34:03,359 immaterial at least is the way the 795 00:34:07,159 --> 00:34:04,799 material at least the way the material 796 00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:07,169 is currently defined digested by science 797 00:34:13,130 --> 00:34:09,569 because that could change or do you not 798 00:34:22,070 --> 00:34:16,430 yeah I mean I don't want to speak with 799 00:34:24,410 --> 00:34:22,080 the whole personal your personal feeling 800 00:34:27,380 --> 00:34:24,420 on the issue you know I think a sauna 801 00:34:31,340 --> 00:34:27,390 research I think in terms of our 802 00:34:37,250 --> 00:34:31,350 physical being yeah when when your body 803 00:34:39,350 --> 00:34:37,260 dies absolutely from my personal 804 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:39,360 experience and from what I've gotten 805 00:34:44,990 --> 00:34:43,050 from children and from teenagers and you 806 00:34:47,540 --> 00:34:45,000 know from the research absolutely 807 00:34:51,350 --> 00:34:47,550 wonderful I don't doubt that really well 808 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:51,360 I appreciate your giving me hope as long 809 00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:52,410 as you're sharing your personal 810 00:35:03,140 --> 00:34:59,280 reflections but I know from my my life 811 00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:03,150 experience and what I've you know yeah 812 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:05,730 the people I've come in contact with the 813 00:35:10,220 --> 00:35:08,010 adults and children absolutely I would 814 00:35:12,910 --> 00:35:10,230 not doubt that one bit that we just not 815 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:12,920 only survive death but we have had other 816 00:35:19,550 --> 00:35:16,890 physical experiences in the past and 817 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:19,560 possibly future I see what you mean here 818 00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:21,810 rich so what was your takeaway from 819 00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:24,240 where she winds up at the end of the day 820 00:35:27,770 --> 00:35:26,310 yeah I think one of the things I think 821 00:35:30,860 --> 00:35:27,780 was interesting and maybe this is sort 822 00:35:32,810 --> 00:35:30,870 of an upshot in general of one of my 823 00:35:34,190 --> 00:35:32,820 main takeaways I suppose or has to do 824 00:35:36,890 --> 00:35:34,200 with one of my main takeaways from all 825 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:36,900 the interviews I've conducted and and 826 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:39,330 that's that you can't really study 827 00:35:43,220 --> 00:35:41,490 thought phenomenon specifically let 828 00:35:45,710 --> 00:35:43,230 alone consciousness generally without 829 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:45,720 addressing the whole complex matrix of 830 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:48,330 sort of psychosocial cultural factors 831 00:35:54,710 --> 00:35:52,290 that encompass it and and that's that 832 00:35:58,850 --> 00:35:54,720 that's ultimately what her her 833 00:36:02,210 --> 00:35:58,860 presentation is emphasized and I think 834 00:36:03,710 --> 00:36:02,220 it's one that anybody looking at 835 00:36:07,250 --> 00:36:03,720 consciousness or working at the cutting 836 00:36:08,930 --> 00:36:07,260 edge of science in any field you know 837 00:36:10,750 --> 00:36:08,940 have to keep in mind I think science 838 00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:10,760 likes to consider itself this sort of 839 00:36:17,090 --> 00:36:14,310 divinely unperturbed objective sort of a 840 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:17,100 enterprise that has nothing to do with 841 00:36:21,170 --> 00:36:18,930 anything else and that's what makes it 842 00:36:24,290 --> 00:36:21,180 objective and impartial and unbiased but 843 00:36:26,180 --> 00:36:24,300 I think to look at any any kind of 844 00:36:27,020 --> 00:36:26,190 scientific phenomenon and really 845 00:36:29,990 --> 00:36:27,030 especially 846 00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:30,000 like consciousness you really it really 847 00:36:35,810 --> 00:36:31,920 needs to be examined within this whole 848 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:35,820 complex matrix of of other influences 849 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:38,250 that influence not only the phenomenon 850 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:40,290 but perhaps influence the way people 851 00:36:44,450 --> 00:36:42,450 investigating the phenomenon are 852 00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:44,460 approaching it awesome and and that's 853 00:36:48,830 --> 00:36:47,520 kind of a neat segue into the final 854 00:36:51,410 --> 00:36:48,840 interview we're gonna bring folks and 855 00:36:55,340 --> 00:36:51,420 that's with van de castle you want to 856 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:55,350 tee that up yeah another fascinating guy 857 00:36:59,840 --> 00:36:57,210 and incidentally he was only willing to 858 00:37:02,180 --> 00:36:59,850 talk with me after consulting and 859 00:37:04,490 --> 00:37:02,190 getting sort of obtaining a positive 860 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:04,500 reference on my behalf from Andy 861 00:37:08,930 --> 00:37:07,290 Paquette because he apparently has 862 00:37:11,780 --> 00:37:08,940 worked with an ear nose and II Paquette 863 00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:11,790 from from other venues and I I had 864 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:14,880 actually written a apparently the van 865 00:37:19,220 --> 00:37:17,610 der Castle has had some bad experiences 866 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:19,230 in the past he's got a long case had a 867 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:21,210 long distinguished career and he's had 868 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:23,250 some bad experience with prominent 869 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:25,530 whatever you want except skeptics or 870 00:37:31,820 --> 00:37:27,930 pseudo skeptics whose names I guess I'll 871 00:37:33,650 --> 00:37:31,830 leave out but um that I guess the name 872 00:37:35,330 --> 00:37:33,660 skeptical when he heard it kind of 873 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:35,340 spooked him and he didn't know if he 874 00:37:40,130 --> 00:37:38,130 wanted to talk to me or not so Andy 875 00:37:42,290 --> 00:37:40,140 Pickett gave me a positive reference but 876 00:37:44,330 --> 00:37:42,300 banned a castle of dr. robert van de 877 00:37:46,190 --> 00:37:44,340 castle he's he's a professor emeritus at 878 00:37:48,530 --> 00:37:46,200 the University of Virginia Health 879 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:48,540 Sciences Center I believe and he's a 880 00:37:53,930 --> 00:37:51,330 former director of the sleep and dream 881 00:37:57,470 --> 00:37:53,940 laboratory at the University of Virginia 882 00:37:59,560 --> 00:37:57,480 Medical Center too and he again his 883 00:38:02,300 --> 00:37:59,570 specialty besides parapsychological and 884 00:38:04,940 --> 00:38:02,310 issues is of course dream research and 885 00:38:07,730 --> 00:38:04,950 he's just widely published he's edited a 886 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:07,740 Sunni book series on dream studies and 887 00:38:12,950 --> 00:38:10,770 dream research and written a book called 888 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:12,960 our dreaming mind and and and his 889 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:15,690 presentation basically covered his 890 00:38:19,940 --> 00:38:17,730 reflections on how dream research can 891 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:19,950 shed light on both parapsychological 892 00:38:27,230 --> 00:38:25,290 research and what the potential what the 893 00:38:29,990 --> 00:38:27,240 potentialities I guess of consciousness 894 00:38:33,170 --> 00:38:30,000 are and it's it's along with quantum 895 00:38:36,550 --> 00:38:33,180 entanglement how it needs to be looked 896 00:38:39,710 --> 00:38:36,560 at or examined as part of a matrix of 897 00:38:40,220 --> 00:38:39,720 other minds and the environment in the 898 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:40,230 world and 899 00:38:44,210 --> 00:38:41,850 universe and the cosmos of was just 900 00:38:48,220 --> 00:38:44,220 apart I guess that was the focus of his 901 00:38:51,980 --> 00:38:48,230 presentation great and here it is 902 00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:51,990 consciousness is so broad we can now 903 00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:54,960 start to gain access to deeper regions 904 00:39:02,870 --> 00:38:58,050 within our unconscious and program it 905 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:02,880 and through lucidity now speak without 906 00:39:08,230 --> 00:39:06,090 do stammer right so you could now you 907 00:39:11,330 --> 00:39:08,240 know like that movie that was made with 908 00:39:13,609 --> 00:39:11,340 British king of this right yeah yeah so 909 00:39:15,550 --> 00:39:13,619 now using overcome that yeah you said 910 00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:15,560 the state or you can now start 911 00:39:22,849 --> 00:39:18,960 experiencing the divine because a lot of 912 00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:22,859 times the sensational light works it's 913 00:39:29,290 --> 00:39:26,190 you know the 1812 overture that you know 914 00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:29,300 4th of July fireworks up in DC it's this 915 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:32,609 incredible explosive beautiful kind of 916 00:39:39,410 --> 00:39:34,170 experience and you can have that I think 917 00:39:42,910 --> 00:39:39,420 Wow that's in me I have this wonderful 918 00:39:46,340 --> 00:39:42,920 wonderful ability to experience so so 919 00:39:49,550 --> 00:39:46,350 deeply and you can appreciate it 920 00:39:51,290 --> 00:39:49,560 some kind of power so it isn't like you 921 00:39:53,420 --> 00:39:51,300 get specifically you don't become 922 00:39:55,370 --> 00:39:53,430 Catholic or you know through in or 923 00:39:57,410 --> 00:39:55,380 whatever but you really feel like you 924 00:39:59,330 --> 00:39:57,420 know there is some awesome power channel 925 00:40:01,280 --> 00:39:59,340 to spiritual experiences that you 926 00:40:03,170 --> 00:40:01,290 wouldn't ordinarily have it and that's 927 00:40:06,230 --> 00:40:03,180 becoming that's that's currently a 928 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:06,240 current sort of a hot topic in dream 929 00:40:12,660 --> 00:40:08,130 research to get back to the original 930 00:40:14,339 --> 00:40:12,670 your again to I guess to sort of sum up 931 00:40:17,819 --> 00:40:14,349 what you think maybe are the 932 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:17,829 implications of your experience and your 933 00:40:24,329 --> 00:40:21,130 research as expressed in this paper the 934 00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:24,339 matrix of entangled dreams what exactly 935 00:40:32,430 --> 00:40:27,520 then would you say in terms of siphon 936 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:32,440 anima is occurring is occurring in these 937 00:40:39,809 --> 00:40:35,170 dream experiences is do your family back 938 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:39,819 up additional okay for the book I chose 939 00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:44,170 the title of our dreaming mind Hobson 940 00:40:48,569 --> 00:40:46,480 who had been the guy or the hindbrain 941 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:48,579 yeah that this was just all nonsense 942 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:50,410 stuff that the brain was trying to make 943 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:53,530 a job of this were a few chatter coming 944 00:40:58,170 --> 00:40:56,410 through this is called the dreaming 945 00:41:00,390 --> 00:40:58,180 brain so I wanted to make the 946 00:41:04,380 --> 00:41:00,400 differentiation between brain which 947 00:41:06,839 --> 00:41:04,390 means just pump it way better yeah to my 948 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:06,849 mind just to me a much more active all 949 00:41:12,059 --> 00:41:08,890 expensive lunches example they wanted to 950 00:41:15,839 --> 00:41:12,069 ask you rather than the which to me is 951 00:41:19,170 --> 00:41:15,849 the achieve a computer here is that cell 952 00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:19,180 phone to make it our you know this is 953 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:21,730 now our conversation right when you get 954 00:41:26,099 --> 00:41:23,410 done with this tape innocence that's our 955 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:26,109 tape now right so I wanted to convey the 956 00:41:31,980 --> 00:41:29,010 collective quality of that so I think 957 00:41:34,049 --> 00:41:31,990 since everybody dreams everybody dreams 958 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:34,059 every night in your normal life time 959 00:41:37,859 --> 00:41:35,410 you're gonna have a hundred thousand 960 00:41:40,349 --> 00:41:37,869 dreams so you're not quite born of a 961 00:41:42,690 --> 00:41:40,359 millionaire but you're born a dream 962 00:41:44,490 --> 00:41:42,700 inheritor of a hundred thousand billion 963 00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:44,500 election and what do most of us through 964 00:41:49,220 --> 00:41:46,000 with it I mean if you really felt like 965 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:49,230 that was what you were given as your 966 00:41:56,210 --> 00:41:54,090 inheritance upon being a human beings 967 00:41:58,490 --> 00:41:56,220 you know you could probate you know at 968 00:42:02,510 --> 00:41:58,500 age 40 how much if you still got it that 969 00:42:04,310 --> 00:42:02,520 you know of the original money you got 970 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:04,320 what have you squandered how much you 971 00:42:08,540 --> 00:42:06,330 need right how much you thrown away how 972 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:08,550 much of you you know 973 00:42:16,130 --> 00:42:12,930 stayed with and so it to me the psychic 974 00:42:19,820 --> 00:42:16,140 gaming is one aspect of that you can get 975 00:42:21,530 --> 00:42:19,830 creative aspects and do writing and all 976 00:42:24,650 --> 00:42:21,540 the things we mentioned before poetry 977 00:42:27,980 --> 00:42:24,660 the painting the art oh yeah that kind 978 00:42:30,530 --> 00:42:27,990 of thing inventions would be there so 979 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:30,540 and with lucidity you can now gain 980 00:42:33,110 --> 00:42:32,490 access to all of these other parts of 981 00:42:36,290 --> 00:42:33,120 yourself 982 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:36,300 sure so the psychic one to me is saying 983 00:42:44,330 --> 00:42:41,490 we all are truly connected you have your 984 00:42:47,810 --> 00:42:44,340 living inside your skin I'm living 985 00:42:51,050 --> 00:42:47,820 inside my skin but that's some level 986 00:42:54,350 --> 00:42:51,060 we're sharing our bodies at some level 987 00:42:56,900 --> 00:42:54,360 we're sharing our mind so great what I 988 00:42:59,600 --> 00:42:56,910 love is he goes right there with the 989 00:43:01,880 --> 00:42:59,610 divine I mean that's one of my topics as 990 00:43:05,030 --> 00:43:01,890 you know and he's not afraid to throw 991 00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:05,040 that in the mix just as freely as he's 992 00:43:10,310 --> 00:43:08,250 throwing in shared consciousness and how 993 00:43:12,130 --> 00:43:10,320 that all might work together and I 994 00:43:15,410 --> 00:43:12,140 really appreciated that 995 00:43:18,940 --> 00:43:15,420 yeah me too and uh he was he and I I 996 00:43:21,710 --> 00:43:18,950 seen his ruse in particular were to 997 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:21,720 accomplish sort of researchers there who 998 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:25,650 weren't as afraid to and reluctant to 999 00:43:30,140 --> 00:43:28,290 speculate in that regard as some of the 1000 00:43:33,050 --> 00:43:30,150 others even even Darrell BAM who 1001 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:33,060 eventually reluctantly during the course 1002 00:43:38,570 --> 00:43:36,210 of our larger interview I would say 1003 00:43:40,310 --> 00:43:38,580 admitted he acknowledged that that you 1004 00:43:42,530 --> 00:43:40,320 know his research has led him sort of 1005 00:43:44,660 --> 00:43:42,540 reluctantly because he began as a 1006 00:43:48,290 --> 00:43:44,670 skeptic he's very adamant of any calls 1007 00:43:50,210 --> 00:43:48,300 himself still a skeptic with materialist 1008 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:50,220 leanings but he said his research has 1009 00:43:53,390 --> 00:43:52,050 led him reluctantly to thinking that 1010 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:53,400 consciousness probably has a 1011 00:44:00,400 --> 00:43:55,650 non-physical dimension at the very least 1012 00:44:03,470 --> 00:44:00,410 I think he refers to it as non cognitive 1013 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:03,480 stimulative stimuli I think he calls he 1014 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:05,130 calls the non-physical dimension of 1015 00:44:09,849 --> 00:44:06,890 conference consciousness but 1016 00:44:12,730 --> 00:44:09,859 but Vanda Castle and Athena Drew's were 1017 00:44:14,740 --> 00:44:12,740 pretty open about their their beliefs 1018 00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:14,750 that a career and a lifelong career of 1019 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:16,880 research in this field has has led them 1020 00:44:23,349 --> 00:44:20,930 to to believe based on empirical 1021 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:23,359 evidence that did consciousness at the 1022 00:44:28,509 --> 00:44:26,410 very least has a non-physical dimension 1023 00:44:30,309 --> 00:44:28,519 great well those were some great 1024 00:44:32,769 --> 00:44:30,319 interviews I hope people enjoy them as 1025 00:44:34,660 --> 00:44:32,779 much as I did listening to them you know 1026 00:44:36,910 --> 00:44:34,670 what you've touched on maybe one 1027 00:44:39,849 --> 00:44:36,920 question we can tee up for a forum 1028 00:44:43,210 --> 00:44:39,859 discussion and that's this psychosocial 1029 00:44:46,930 --> 00:44:43,220 part of parapsychology and how we can't 1030 00:44:49,779 --> 00:44:46,940 really pull that from any kind of little 1031 00:44:51,789 --> 00:44:49,789 lab experiment we want to do of guessing 1032 00:44:53,950 --> 00:44:51,799 ping-pong balls out of a hat or whatever 1033 00:44:55,210 --> 00:44:53,960 we're gonna do I think that's a great 1034 00:44:58,990 --> 00:44:55,220 point I'm glad you made it 1035 00:45:00,839 --> 00:44:59,000 is there another topic we might tee up 1036 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:00,849 for discussion as a result of this 1037 00:45:06,099 --> 00:45:03,650 conference one of mine I guess related 1038 00:45:08,289 --> 00:45:06,109 to that is I've sort of pertains to the 1039 00:45:11,289 --> 00:45:08,299 character and nature of what we call 1040 00:45:12,970 --> 00:45:11,299 personal or self-identity versus just 1041 00:45:15,569 --> 00:45:12,980 the nature it's sort which I sort of 1042 00:45:18,069 --> 00:45:15,579 look at is a sort of a subfield of 1043 00:45:19,569 --> 00:45:18,079 consciousness studies and and I think 1044 00:45:21,420 --> 00:45:19,579 similar to what we were saying I think 1045 00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:21,430 that you know the more the non-material 1046 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:24,250 character of consciousness is 1047 00:45:29,499 --> 00:45:26,890 established it seems like the more the 1048 00:45:31,359 --> 00:45:29,509 non-local sort of extended relational 1049 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:31,369 character of our personal identity 1050 00:45:36,609 --> 00:45:34,970 itself becomes apparent seems to me that 1051 00:45:39,670 --> 00:45:36,619 the concept of the person as an 1052 00:45:41,410 --> 00:45:39,680 individual isolated ego-centered sort of 1053 00:45:44,499 --> 00:45:41,420 being that's bounded by a physical body 1054 00:45:48,279 --> 00:45:44,509 is is obviously an inadequate concept of 1055 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:48,289 the human being of the person and and 1056 00:45:53,319 --> 00:45:51,410 and and for us to really examine human 1057 00:45:55,660 --> 00:45:53,329 experience and do justice to it we have 1058 00:45:59,049 --> 00:45:55,670 to look at the human agents of 1059 00:46:01,720 --> 00:45:59,059 experience as yeah at least in the 1060 00:46:05,309 --> 00:46:01,730 context of a larger environment or world 1061 00:46:07,450 --> 00:46:05,319 or universe so that that's one of my 1062 00:46:09,430 --> 00:46:07,460 that's one of the one of the main 1063 00:46:11,740 --> 00:46:09,440 takeaways I had from this this 1064 00:46:13,329 --> 00:46:11,750 interchange excellent that's something 1065 00:46:16,390 --> 00:46:13,339 we haven't really talked about and I 1066 00:46:18,970 --> 00:46:16,400 haven't fully contemplated I think so 1067 00:46:20,539 --> 00:46:18,980 that'll be a good one to to discuss so 1068 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:20,549 thanks for bringing us that 1069 00:46:25,910 --> 00:46:23,729 okay so rich that was all good tell us 1070 00:46:28,459 --> 00:46:25,920 about your website do you have any plans 1071 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:28,469 for publishing more complete versions of 1072 00:46:33,169 --> 00:46:31,650 these interviews and if so might they 1073 00:46:34,969 --> 00:46:33,179 appear on your new website 1074 00:46:37,759 --> 00:46:34,979 yeah well as a matter of fact at the the 1075 00:46:40,579 --> 00:46:37,769 behest and inspiration of Alex securest 1076 00:46:42,859 --> 00:46:40,589 I actually constructed the website 1077 00:46:45,289 --> 00:46:42,869 recently and posted all of the 1078 00:46:47,329 --> 00:46:45,299 interviews I conducted at the American 1079 00:46:49,579 --> 00:46:47,339 Psychological Association conference and 1080 00:46:51,859 --> 00:46:49,589 the parapsychology conference in their 1081 00:46:54,529 --> 00:46:51,869 entirety on that website well we'll 1082 00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:54,539 definitely link you up there rich in and 1083 00:46:59,870 --> 00:46:56,640 I hope people do check it out so 1084 00:47:01,880 --> 00:46:59,880 terrific work I'll have to find where to 1085 00:47:05,929 --> 00:47:01,890 send you next this is really working out 1086 00:47:07,699 --> 00:47:05,939 great so thanks hey so it's a great 1087 00:47:10,009 --> 00:47:07,709 pleasure and an honor to do it it's it's 1088 00:47:12,380 --> 00:47:10,019 great for us thanks and take care thank 1089 00:47:14,089 --> 00:47:12,390 you out thanks again to rich Griego and 1090 00:47:16,279 --> 00:47:14,099 all of our guests for all these 1091 00:47:18,650 --> 00:47:16,289 interesting ideas I think rich did a 1092 00:47:20,689 --> 00:47:18,660 nice job of teeing up some questions 1093 00:47:22,370 --> 00:47:20,699 that we might tack so there's no need to 1094 00:47:24,199 --> 00:47:22,380 go over that I will direct your 1095 00:47:26,059 --> 00:47:24,209 attention as always to The Skeptical 1096 00:47:28,519 --> 00:47:26,069 website if you'd like to find out more 1097 00:47:30,349 --> 00:47:28,529 about this show or join us in that 1098 00:47:34,789 --> 00:47:30,359 discussion we're talking about The 1099 00:47:36,229 --> 00:47:34,799 Skeptical website is @sk EPT Iko calm 1100 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:36,239 and there you'll find a link to our 1101 00:47:40,669 --> 00:47:38,249 forum a comment section where you can 1102 00:47:44,089 --> 00:47:40,679 comment directly on the show and links 1103 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:44,099 to our almost 200 previous shows well I 1104 00:47:48,919 --> 00:47:46,410 have several interesting shows coming up 1105 00:47:51,499 --> 00:47:48,929 including a very interesting interview 1106 00:47:53,749 --> 00:47:51,509 with dr. Mario Beauregard in a few weeks 1107 00:47:54,979 --> 00:47:53,759 someone who I really enjoyed talking to 1108 00:47:57,199 --> 00:47:54,989 and I think you're going to enjoy 1109 00:48:00,079 --> 00:47:57,209 hearing from stay with me for all of